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Vanya
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Сообщение Добавлено: Сб Фев 15, 2003 5:54 am Ответить с цитатойВернуться к началу

9-ого февраля был исторический день в истории Сиднейской Церкви Христа, Австралия. Это был день, в который текущее лидерство оказалось, наконец, способно признать, что в систематических злоупотреблениях МЦХ нужно признаться и что нужно остановиться на местном уровне.
Служба началось с нескольких гимнов - ни один из которых не был обычными "счастливо-слащавыми песнями", которые многие из нас презирают, но это были настоящие гимны, которые прославляют Бога.
Первым выступающим был Джорди Бархам, лидер Австралии - Тихоокеанского региона (Австралия, Новая Зеландия, Фиджи и Папуа новая Гвинея). Даже при том, что это было только приветствие, Джорди был в слезах, изо всех сил пытаясь сказать то, что приготовил. Даже для циников те слезы были подлинные. Он кратко затронул проблемы и его личное сожаление о том, что церковь затронули его трусость и недостаток лидерства.
После Джорди, несколько человек выходили на сцену и делились отрывками/молитвами, как на вечере Господней.
Рик Метзгер - Старейшина в учении, Псалом 84.
Эндрю Киченер - Учитель церкви, Псалом 63.
Марк Джонсон - уважаемый член церкви, Псалом 103.
Стюарт Пласкетт - Лидер Канберрской церкви, Псалом 117.
*Стюарт много работал, защищая свою церковь от доктрин МЦХ, и шел против официального учения во многих областях. Например, они оставили наставничество "один на один" в начале прошлого года. Канберрская церковь была жертвой большого злоупотребления от Сиднейского лидерства.
Затем был Дуг Джекоби, который, как многие из нас думали, должен был быть главным источником опровержения доктрин МЦХ, которые тяжело затронули всех нас. Но он не был! Он потратил целый час, развлекая ненужными шутками и пытаясь быть легким и сердечным, в то же самое время неопределенно затрагивая те вещи, которые он сделал неправильно, вещи, которые церковь сделала неправильно, ошибки, совершенные против него; то, как он добивался много лет того, чтобы заставить лидерство очнуться и увидеть доктринальные несоответствия. Дуг действительно указал, что большинство наших доктринальных несоответствий было со времен "Студенческого Служения" и было предназначено для применения молодыми студентами, а не зрелыми учениками. Я не буду входить в специфические особенности того, что он сказал, поскольку, в некоторой степени, это является не относящимся к делу, но некоторые вещи, о которых/против он говорил, были:
- Евангелизм - в учении МЦХ, является небиблейским.
- Наставление "один на один" является небиблейским.
- Тихие Времена - понимание МЦХ ошибочно, Вы не должны читать Библию каждый день. Священные писания просто призывают нас размышлять над Словом каждый день.
- Управление/злоупотребление свиданиями.
- Стиль сбора десятины в МЦХ - основанный на неопределенном знании учения Ветхого Завета. Он спросил в шутку, сколько из нас отдало 10 % любых овощей/трав, которые мы вырастили в наших собственных садах.
- Традиции - слишком много. Делают нас деноминацией.
Он также заявил, что церковь - не демократия (что является библейски верным), но это - также не монархия с одним правителем наверху - не Иисусом. И он также еще раз упомянул о стигме всего учения ВЗ и как неправильно оно было использовано.
Дуг поблагодарил церковь за приглашение переехать сюда и быть частью церкви, хотя, говорил ли он это лидерам, или всей церкви, не ясно. Я не могу вспомнить, был ли он спрошен о том, сможет ли он приехать! (лично я не возражаю против того, что он здесь, однако интересно, сколько людей никогда не открыло бы своих глаз, если бы он не сказал им о потребности изменений. Они конечно выступали против нас (тех, кто был уже свободными мыслителями) до трех или четырех недель назад).
[...]
Затем был старейшина Джеф Хансен, и это было, где мощь Бога, наконец, показала себя. Вплоть до этого пункта большинство людей чувствовало себя достаточно комфортно. Джеф не сдерживался, о том, что он думал, было необходимо для Сиднейской церкви освободиться от системы МЦХ. Он извинился за свою трусость и не защиту церкви, даже когда он знал, что система была настолько испорчена. Он признал, что его призвали, чтобы защитить ложные доктрины, защитить евангелистов и неудавшихся пастухов. Он сказал, что офис Старейшин был фарсом в МЦХ, и библейски неправильным в своей структуре. Джеф также напал на лидерство, говоря, что не может быть абсолютно никакой терпимости к оскорбительному лидерству, что множество людей все еще опровергают систему церкви и ее злоупотребления, что необходимы изменения и что церковь до сих пор считает себя правой.
Вот - некоторые из его пунктов:
- Зрелость и мудрость обесценены, в то время, как молодость и энтузиазм подняты.
- Ставка учила, что они одни имели мудрость.
- Незрелое лидерство.
- Трусость взяла контроль над церковью.
- Соответствие вымышленному пониманию писаний.
- Лидерство церкви - современные Фарисеи - недостаток милости и справедливости.
- Он осудил высокомерие высшего лидерства.
- KNN нужно убрать на совсем, поскольку ему не доверяют и - это просто "механизм пропаганды ЛА".
- Он также затронул задачи Конференции Единства в Лос-Анджелесе и сказал, что это полностью не соответствовало потребностям и нуждам церкви. Не было никакого подтверждения системных злоупотреблений, и он не имел никакого доверия к тем, кто не замечал прошлых ошибок.
- Миссионерским сбором злоупотребляли лидеры, чтобы поддержать любимые проекты.
- Честность администраторов была скомпрометирована необходимостью отчитываться ведущим евангелистам.
- Служение женщин должно быть расформировано. Жены евангелистов должны быть исключительно как жены и поддержка своим мужьям. Потребности женщин в пределах церкви нужно удовлетворять совершенно на другом уровне и новым способом, который является выгодным для женщин а не тем, который является полностью небиблейским.
- Старшие женщины должны учить более молодых, не наоборот.
- Он также убеждал людей концентрироваться на том, что является неправильным в церкви, а не на том, кто не прав.
- Автономия для местных церквей, так как они одни знают то, что необходимо и могут ответить лучше на культурные потребности.
Он говорил о некоторых других пунктах, но это - те, которые были наиболее близки мне. Джеф - единственный, кому зал аплодировал стоя. Много людей было просто слишком ошеломлено его прямолинейностью и истинностью его слов, чтобы ответить. Я не имею сомнений: множество "сторонников компании" были потрясены.
Затем говорили Джорди и Паула Бархам. Именно в этот момент многие из нас стали говорить: "Позор!", разносящейся эхом по аудитории. Было здорово слышать тех, кто был уже свободными мыслителями, выкрикивающими это. Было нужно, чтобы эти возгласы "дошли" до лидеров, хотя они были уже сломаны, они должны были слышать это от людей!
Паула пошла первой, и через искренние слезы просила о прощении за то, что была трусом, за злоупотребления привилегиями, за резкость, за не защиту женщин, за фаворитизм. Она признала, что знала о пагубных методах, но дистанцировалась самостоятельно, она была не в состоянии служить женщинам, но вместо этого вынудила их служить ей и другим лидерам. Она подтвердила, что не было никакого голоса для женщин - тем, у кого были проблемы, затыкались рты, они выделялись как раскольники. Других вызывали жертвовать больше и вне зависимости от того, что те были готовы сделать для служения. Учение "один на один" использовалось, чтобы давить на людей. Не было никакой свободы. Паула теперь признается, что полностью стыдится методов церкви и стыдится своего участия в них.
Следующий говорил Джорди, также со многими слезами. Он поднял следующие пункты:
- Свидания управлялись ставкой, когда это не было их делом.
- Наставление "один на один" никогда не должно было существовать. Это была просто форма контроля.
- Группы учения - были позорной и отвратительная формой злоупотребления, где члены были поощрены вредить друг другу.
- Евангелизм/обращение был чрезвычайно завышен в своих требованиях.
- Он признал, что никогда не защищал людей от систематического вреда и злоупотребления.
- Статистические данные всегда использовались для небиблейской мотивации.
- Подчинение и уважение к лидерам были насильственными, ожидающимися и были заработаны самим положением лидеров.
- Штат (работающих на церковь) является элитарным.
- Лидерство злоупотребляло сбором.
- Штат был не в состоянии служить членам церкви, но настаивал на том, чтобы им служили.
- Он признал, что был Фарисеем в способе, которым он вел.
- Людям, которые оставили церковь, давали клеймо "Отпадших", в то время как нет никакой библейской поддержки этого.
- Вся иерархия церкви ошибочна и сама по себе была главной причиной большого количества злоупотреблений.
- Он признался в том, что имел поверхностный характер, мелкий и слепой, следующий за "руководящей линией партии", когда он знал, что это причиняло вред людям. Он выбрал быть трусом, показав слабый характер.
После Джорди и Паулы, вышел Майк Хауелл, бывший Евангелист и теперь Дьякон. Он поделился тем, через что он прошел в церкви, но многие из нас удивлялись, задаваясь вопросом, почему он говорил вообще, это казалось тратой времени.
Присутствовали некоторые бывшие члены церкви, хотя не столько, сколько я ожидал или надеялся. Возможно это - отражение того факта, что большинство из нас полностью прекратило контакт с "отпадшими" - что само по себе является позорным. Но возможно, большинство экс-членов вне того, что происходит в МЦХ и не заботится о том, что происходит(?). Те, кто присутствовал, были очень шумны, что было здорово видеть.

Это ни в коем случае не конец всего для Австралии. Есть большое утешение и изменения, которые должны произойти. Есть определенно призыв ко всему штату - уйти в отставку, основанный на воскресных откровениях. Случится ли это или нет - мы еще увидим. Следующие несколько недель будут очень интересны, поскольку это погрузится в мышление отдельных членов. Будет элемент хаоса, возможно раскол и много настоятельно высказываемого вреда. Процесс начался, но это - только начало, только Бог знает результат. У нас есть много, много форумов, обсуждения и сессий вопросов-ответов, запланированные на следующие несколько недель. Есть так много проблем, которые будут подняты и решены.
Для тех из вас в церквях, где не было, или только поверхностные изменения - не сдавайтесь в борьбе. Продолжайте идти, Бог - с Вами. Для тех лидеров, которые сопротивляются изменениям, я убеждаю Вас прекратить сопротивление Богу, и ради Иисуса, раскайтесь. Это все - вопрос спасения.
С любовью Христовой ко всем вам
Филипп Скотт
Сидней, Австралия

_________________
Я против еврейского фашизма
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340207/I-didnt-think-Iraqis-humans-says-U-S-soldier-raped-14-year-old-girl-killing-her-family.html

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Сообщение Добавлено: Сб Фев 15, 2003 7:58 am Ответить с цитатойВернуться к началу

February 9th was an historic day in the history of the Sydney Church of Christ, Australia. It was the day on which the current leadership were finally able to admit that the systemic abuses of the ICC had to be admitted to and stopped on a local level.
The service started with several hymns – none of which were the usual “happy happy clappy songs” that a lot of us despise, but real hymns that glorify God.
The first speaker was Geordie Barham, leader of the Australia –Pacific region (Australia, New Zealand, Fiji and Papua New Guinea). Even though this was only the introduction, Geordie was in tears and struggling to get his words out. And for the cynics out there the tears were genuine. He briefly touched on issues and his personal regret at how the church has been affected by his cowardice and lack of leadership.
After Geordie, we had several people get up and share scriptures/ prayers, followed by the Lords Supper.
Rick Metzger – Elder in Training Psalm 84
Andrew Kitchener – Church teacher Psalm 63
Mark Johnson – respected member of Church Psalm 103
Stuart Plaskett – Leader of the Canberra church* Psalm 117
* Stuart has been very busy protecting his church from the ICC doctrine, and has gone against the grain in many areas. For example they abandoned one on one discipling early last year. The Canberra church was victim of much abuse from Sydney leadership.
Next up was Doug Jacoby, who many of us thought would be the main source of rebuttal of the ICC doctrines that have woefully affected us all. But he wasn’t! He spent one hour cracking unnecessary jokes and trying to be light hearted, whilst at the same time vaguely going into things that he had done wrong, things the church had done wrong, wrongs committed against him, how he had been trying for years to get the leadership to wake up and see the doctrinal inconsistencies. Doug did point out that most of our doctrinal inadequacies were from the “Campus Ministry” days and were designed to be applied to young students not mature adults. I won’t go into specifics about what he said, as in some ways it’s irrelevant, but some things he spoke about/against were:
- Evangelism – in the ICC sense, is unbiblical.
- One on one discipling is unbiblical
- Quiet Times - ICC type are wrong and you don’t need to read your bible’s everyday. The scriptures simply call us to meditate on the Word everyday
- Dating relationship controls/abuses
- Tithing ICC style – based on vague knowledge of Old Testament teachings. He asked jokingly how many of us had given 10% of any vegetables/herbs we had grown in our own gardens 
- Traditions – too many. Makes us a denomination
He also stated that the church is not a democracy (which is biblically true), but it is also not a monarchy with one ruler at the top – other than Jesus. And he also once again mentioned the whole stigma of the OTC teachings and how very wrong they were.
Doug actually thanked the church for inviting him to move here and be a part of the church, although whether he was speaking to the leadership or the whole church is not clear. I cannot remember being asked if he could come! (personally I don’t mind him being here, however I wonder how many people would never have opened their eyes if he hadn’t told them about the need to change. They were certainly opposing us (those who were already free thinkers) until three or four weeks back)
Some of us had pushed for DJ to speak for an hour, as at first, he was only going to speak for about 15 minutes and we naively thought he would be the source of controversy. In hind site we wish we had of left him with 15 minutes . He played it quite safe and it was actually good that the main points of issue did not come from him but a local. It had more wieght that way.
Next up was elder Geoff Hansen, and this is where the power of God finally revealed itself. Up until this point most people were quite comfortable. Geoff did not hold back in what he thought was necessary for the Sydney church to recover from the ICC system. He apologised for his cowardice and not protecting the church even when he knew the system was so corrupt. He admitted that he had been called to defend the false doctrines, protect the evangelists, and failed in shepherding the flock. He said the office of Eldership was a farce within the ICC and biblically incorrect in it’s structure. Geoff also attacked the leadership saying that there can be absolutely no tolerance of abusive leadership, that a lot of people are still in denial about the church system and it's abuses and the need for change, and that the church has been and still is to a degree selfrighteous and ungraceful.
Here are some of his points:
- Maturity and wisdom devalued, as youth and enthusiasm are raised up.
- Staff taught that they alone had wisdom
- Immature leadership
- Cowardice had taken control of the church
- Conformity to fictional understandings of scripture
- The church leadership are modern day Pharisees – lacking grace and highly judgemental
- He denounced the arrogance of the top leadership
- KNN needs to be taken out permanently as it lacks credibility and is simply the “LA propaganda machine”
- He also took the LA Unity Conference to task and said that it had totally missed the point as to
what was now needed in the church. There had been no acknowledgement of systemic abuses and
he had no trust of those who had failed to ackonwledge past hurts.
- Missions contribution has been abused by leaders to support pet projects.
- The integrity of administrors had been compromised by having to report to lead evagelists.
- Womens ministry needs to be disbanded. Evangelists wives should be there soley as a wife and support to their husbands. Womens needs within the church need to be addressed on a totally different level and in a new way that is beneficial to women and not in a way that is entirely unbiblical.
- Older women need to be teaching the younger ones, not the other way around
- He also urged people to concentrate on what is worng in the church not who is wrong.
- Autonomy for local churches as they alone know what is needed and can respond better to cultural needs
He spoke about some other points but these are the ones that stood out to me. Geoff received the only standing ovation received by any speaker after his fifteen minutes of speaking the truth. A lot of people were simply too stunned by his bluntness and the truth of his words to respond. I have no doubt a lot of “company supporters” were shocked.
Next, Geordie and Paula Barham spoke. It was at this point that a lot of us became vocal with calls of “Shame!” echoing around the auditorium. It was good to hear those who were already free thinkers shouting out at this time. The message neede to be rammed home to the leaders that although they were broken, they needed to hear it from the people!
Paula went first and through genuine tears asked for forgiveness for being a coward, for abuses of privilege, for harshness, for not protecting the women, for favouritism. She admiited being aware of hurtful practices but had distanced herself, she had failed to serve the women but had instead forced them to serve her and other leaders. She had ensured that there was no voice for the women – those with issues were shutdown and labelled as divisive. Others were called to sacrifice above and beyond what those in the ministry were prepared to do. One on one discipleship was used to crush people. There was no liberty. Paula now confesses to being totally ashamed of church practices and ashamed of her participation.
Next Geordie spoke, also through many tears. He raised the following points:
- dating was controlled by the staff when it was none of their business.
- One on One discipling should never have existed. It was/is purely a form of control
- Discipling grpous were a shameful and disgusting form of abuse were members were encouraged to hurt each other.
- Evangelism/Campaigns were grossly overstated in their need.
- He admited he never protedted people from the systemic hurts and abuses.
- Statistics were always used for unbiblical motivation
- Submission and respect towards leaders was forced, expected and earned by being a people pleaser.
- The staff are/were elitist
- Contribution was abused by leadership
- Staff failed to serve the church members but insisted upon being served.
- He admitted being a Pharisee in the way he had lead.
- People who left the church were given the stigma of being “Fall Aways” when there is no biblical support of this. God draws the line, not men.
- The whole hierachy of the church is wrong and had in itself been the main cause of much abuse.
- He admitted to having had a superficial nature, shallow and blindly following the party line when he knew it was hurting people. He chose to be a coward and that he had exhibited weak character.
After Geordie and Paula, came Mike Howell, former Evangelist and now Deacon. He shared of what he had been through in the church but a lot of us were left wondering why he spoke at all, it seemed a waste of time.
There were some former members present, although not as many as I expected or hoped for. Perhaps this is a reflection of the fact that most of us have totally severed contact with “fall aways” - which in itself is shameful. But perhaps then again most local ex-members are over the whole ICC thing and don’t care what happens(?). Those who were present, were very vocal which was good to see.
This is by no means the end of it all for Australia. There is much healing and changes to be made. There is definitely a call for the entire staff to resign based upon yesterdays revelations. Whether this happens or not is yet to be seen. The next few weeks will be very interesting as this sinks into the mind of the individual members. There will be an element of chaos, perhaps a split and lots of hurt being strongly voiced. The process has begun, but this is only the start, only god knows the outcome. We have many, many forums, discussions and Q&A sessions planned over the next few weeks. There are so many issues to be raised and resolved.
For those of you in churches where there have been no, or only superficial, changes – don’t give up the fight. Keep going, God is with you. For those leaders who are resisting change, I urge you to stop resisting God and for the sake of Jesus, repent This is all a matter of salvation.
Love to you all in Christ
Philip Scott
Sydney, Australia

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Юрий Тимчук
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Сообщение Добавлено: Сб Фев 15, 2003 8:15 am Ответить с цитатойВернуться к началу

http://home.earthlink.net/~guyloginin/ICCdocs.html

Нужно сказать что волна набирает ход... Сейчас это уже в некоторых Церквях в США.

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Сообщение Добавлено: Сб Фев 15, 2003 2:57 pm Ответить с цитатойВернуться к началу

Спасибо Иван и Юрий за новость .
"- Тихие Времена - понимание МЦХ ошибочно, Вы не должны читать Библию каждый день. Священные писания просто призывают нас размышлять над Словом каждый день. " !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Изучение и еще раз изучение Писания .
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Сообщение Добавлено: Вс Фев 16, 2003 9:54 am Ответить с цитатойВернуться к началу

Вот комментарии, который я полуил от учителя в Австралии по поводу произошедшего
{...}
This transcript is a pretty fair record of events. I have actually been asked to prepare one as well which I am in the process of doing. I am aiming to keep editorial comments to a minimum.

I would sum up the day by saying that is was a long overdue 'telling it like it really is' and 'telling it like it really has been'; and roundly rejecting multiple sinful and UnBiblical practices, processes and aspects of church culture. Many people are feeling for the first time they can now tell their story.

Andrew Kitchen
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Сообщение Добавлено: Вс Фев 23, 2003 9:31 am Ответить с цитатойВернуться к началу

Вот так вот прозападно настроенные люди любят себя, что им даже лень перевести несколько фраз с "языка межнационального общения" на язык, на котором говорят подавляющее большинство людей в России.
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Анатолий Козловский
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Сообщение Добавлено: Вс Фев 23, 2003 10:30 am Ответить с цитатойВернуться к началу

Анатолий, зачем так негативно! Человек доброе дело сделал, письмо разместил, а Вы "любит себя". icon_eek.gif
и www.tranlate.ru есть
Вот перевод

"Эта стенограмма (расшифровка) - довольно честное изложение событий. Меня фактически просили подготовить такую [же], что я и делаю. Я считаю, что нужно свести редакторские (в контексте, я думаю имеются ввиду личностные комметарии -Ан.Козл.) комментарии к минимуму.
Я бы обобщил события того дня словами, что [встреча] сильно затянулась, потому что [люди] говорили, "как все на самом деле есть", и "говорили так, как все на самом деле было", и резко отвергали многократные греховные и Небиблейские методы, процедуры и моменты церковной культуры. Многие впервые почувствовали, что могут рассказать свою истроию.
Эндрю Китчен."
[ Учитель Географического Сектора - Анат. Козл. ]
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Сообщение Добавлено: Вт Мар 11, 2003 5:47 pm Ответить с цитатойВернуться к началу

Gerar писал(а):
Вот комментарии, который я полуил от учителя в Австралии по поводу произошедшего{...}

А вот полное изложение от него же (www.icocnews.org):


‘WHAT’S GOING ON?’

23rd February 2003

Sydney Church of Christ - Special Meeting, Feb 23rd
John Clancy Auditorium, University of NSW, Sydney Australia


An account prepared by Andrew Kitchen, Sydney.
Sources: personal recollections, speakers’ notes, published attendees’ notes.

Opening Remarks:
This, the second of the special congregational services of the Sydney Church of Christ, has been designed with input from many members and guidance from the leadership of the church. At our last meeting on 9 February, wrongs were admitted, apologies made, and forgiveness sought.

It is hoped that today’s service will facilitate healing and recovery for those who need it, while calling us all back to the firm foundation of the word of God. Thank you for being here with us today.

PART I
Singing:
Sing Hallelujah to the Lord (441), The Steadfast Love of the Lord (102), Awesome God (445)
Welcome: “What went on two weeks ago?” (review of February 9th)- Rick Mesker
Prayer: Miles Mason and Jonathan Harris

Readings and hymns:
Psalm 91:1-10-George Banyard
It Is Well With my Soul (456)

Psalm 100:1-5-David Bosanquet
Jesus is Lord (423)

Psalm 111:1-10-David Johnson
Holy, Holy, Holy (442)

Psalm 119:1-8-Paul Musumeci
Nearer, Still Nearer (404)

Psalm 147:1-11-Daniel Lowden
O Sacred Head (409)

Communion -Rob Jackson
Poor contribution -Roger Donnelly
Psalm 86:1-13 and prayer Psalm 82:2-4 and prayer

Singing: Amazing Grace (359)

Scriptural address -Andrew Kitchen


PART IISinging: I Will Call Upon the Lord (103)
Special sharing: Melissa Jacob, Phil Scott, Mark Johnson

Short notes:
(1) Rethinking marriage and family: the Marrieds’ Retreat-Mike & Bronwyn Howell.
(2) ‘What’s going on around the world? (Are we alone in all of this?)’-Douglas Jacoby.
(3) ‘How did we get here?’ and ‘Who’s really leading the Sydney church?’-Geordie Barham.
(4) Labelling and ‘divisiveness’, the ‘Mainline’ Churches of Christ, and the 16 March service-Richard Parrott.

Closing: Geoff Hansen
Prayer: Gary McMahon
Closing hymn: Lo, What a Glorious Sight! (416)

RICK MESKER-welcome & recapThis is the second in a series of three meetings. We are here to address systemic problems and find solutions.

Recap 9 Feb:Range of emotions
We are all victims of the system
Some abused/conned-“that’s how I feel”
We all love God and want to do the right thing
Conflicts can be resolvedmove forward
Restore NT Christianity as it should be
Teens were in Kid’s Kingdom-today they are with us, and need to hear the truth, and what went wrong

Geordie addressed church and acknowledged wrongdoings: many had had concerns… Many people were feeling deep hurt and pain; people had been bullied. Existent leadership at time had been harsh and arrogant and unloving, following precepts of men > scriptures. GB regrets deeply, and feels shame.

Doug Jacoby spoke about ICOC history and his spiritual journey since 1977, and discussions of issues and raising these concerns. Had noted church worldwide had been in trouble and in need of returning to basics. Over time it is easy to become a church of spin doctors-KNN, e.g. Harshness, discipleship, control, and culture of mistrust. Statistics and accountability and the revolving door. Raised issue of legalism v. biblical balance: dating, discipling, evangelism, and QTs.

Geoff Hansen echoed many of the things Doug had already mentioned, including the need to flick KNN, which was met with a resounding applause. Said he had had reservations about being elder in the church. Became discouraged, because over time, as an elder he was not allowed freedom to do what an elder is supposed to do.

Barhams spoke about harsh leadership too.

That is it in a nutshell. My charge to the church is that we stop throwing stones; that we now move on and make the church a great place. It is our church, and we all have to take responsibility. A lot of things happened and we let them happen. Some stood up as a lone voice and felt, What’s the use? so we stopped speaking out. But the Bible says we are to speak the truth in love to each other. We should be like the Bereans, searching daily to ensure we are teaching the truth.


ANDREW KITCHEN - Scriptural Address:Tools

Introduction:

Over the last few weeks I have been involved in many talks, I have heard many sad stories, I have seen many hurting people. Many of you are angry, and rightly so. Many of you are hurting and trying to deal with the experiences you have had and the things you feel. Many of you are trying to process mentally and emotionally the events and revelations of recent weeks. Many others don’t understand the fuss. Some of you are in denial. Others are uncertain, and finding it hard to grapple with change. Some of you are drowning.

How did we get into this situation, and how do we get out of it? How can we make sure we never come here again? How can we restore confidence? How can we grow as individuals? These are questions many of you are asking.

So as I come to speak to you this morning, I want you to know that I understand all of you have unique and personal situations. All of you have individual needs at this time. The problem I have is that I’ve only got 30 minutes. I want to try to at least say something that will meet some of the needs of some of you. I hope there will be something in the message this morning that helps you.

This is not going to be a radical sweeping “phase 2” proclamation. This will not be an exhortation to “Get fired up and move on.” That would be insulting to you. I don’t want to ‘preach’ at you. I will try not to offer you my opinions. What I am going to try and do is to offer you some Biblical direction, offer you some tools that perhaps can help you and offer you hope.

At the time of Nehemiah, when the Israelites were trying to rebuild the wall around Jerusalem, the people were finding it hard to move forward. They said to Nehemiah (Neh 4:10) "The strength of the laborers is giving out, and there is so much rubble that we cannot rebuild the wall."

There was so much devastation, so much opposition and the task seemed so enormous that the people were out of strength. “There’s so much rubble we can’t rebuild it. We can’t go on”. What did they need? A number of things probably. But one thing they needed for sure were some tools. Tools to help move the rubble away. Tools to cut and dress stone. Tools to erect the wall and the gates.

I’ve had a number of conversations and email from people over the last couple of weeks, and a fairly common theme is a desire to move on. We are experiencing the crumbling of old ways and systems, and many of us want to fill the vacuum. However, we don’t want to simply replace one flawed system with another.

I think we need to stand back and evaluate the reasons that allowed the destructive and damaging practices to flourish in the first place. We need to then learn how we as individuals and as a church need to change so that this can never happen again. I think we need some tools.

These tools are a platform on which can build further.

Tool #1: Discernment(Heb 5:14 NIV) But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

This passage offers us several important points:
1. The Maturity myth.

I’m going to explode a myth here this morning. The maturity myth. Ask yourself the question: What do I consider to be spiritual maturity? Chances are that many of us would respond: “well, someone who has been a Christian for x years. Someone who has been around a long time etc. Someone who is in some form of leadership perhaps.

I believe the Bible challenges these views. Hebrews says that the mark of maturity is being able to distinguish good from evil. It is being able to train yourself to distinguish good from evil. It is by training yourself to distinguish good from evil by constant use of applying solid food, and the context shows us that this is solid food is God’s word.

A mature person is someone who has got solid Biblical convictions on what is right, what is wrong, and has developed these convictions by their own study and evaluation of God’s word.

Let’s read the verses before:
(Heb 5:12-13 NIV) In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! {13} Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.

The analogy of the passage is that of a child growing up to be an adult. All parents are familiar with the transition from feeding milk to feeding solid food to their children. Many babies don’t like it. It’s different. It’s lumpy. It takes more effort to chew it. It’s not as easy as sucking on a bottle. But if they don’t make the transition to solid food they will never grow, their needs won’t be met and it would clearly be a very bad situation.

Lets extend it. Children grow up in a family, and learn many things from their parents. Our children will grow up going to church, believing in God etc. But the test will come when they transition through the next step of adolescence. Then the teen will ask questions for themselves. They will challenge authority. They form their opinions and identity. They are learning to make their own way in life. It can be a messy time for parents. But what parent would want their child to remain a child, unable to think and make choices for themselves? They would have failed as a parent.

My opinion. In the church, we have many who have yet to go through ‘spiritual adolescence.’ You have not been allowed to question freely. You have not felt able to challenge authority. As a result I believe many of us are not well-equipped at this point in time to build personal convictions from The Bible, and that I believe is a major need we have.

Our first step is awareness. Can I distinguish good from evil? For myself, I haven’t been able to distinguish good from evil I am ashamed to say. I’ve been in the harsh D-groups, I’ve seen people marginalized and ill-treated, and what did I do? I’ve seen my wife, close friends and others who have not a voice marginalized, intimidated and ill-treated, and what did I do? Have I been mature enough to distinguish good from evil? No I haven’t. But now I know that this ability to distinguish is vital. It’s vital for teachers it’s vital for all ministers, it’s vital for all of us.

Let’s look at another passage on this:
(Rom 12: 2} Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Paul is saying to the Roman church: Don’t think like the world thinks. Get a new mindset, new attitudes etc. which will flow through into transforming you as a person. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is.

Test and approve.
For many of us, we have fairly humbly and unquestioningly accepted anything from the pulpit. Anything published by DPI, anything said by anybody discipling us etc.
But what does the Bible encourage us to do here: Test and approve. Not with a worldly approach, we are Christians, we need to maintain respect in our discussions etc. but test and approve we must.
For my character - quite compliant. That’s a strength in some ways and a weakness in others. One thing I have trying to teach myself over the last year or so is to “Don’t just accept; Test” I believe we need to learn this as well.

Rom 12:9 Hate what is evil. Cling to what is good.

Another passage:
(1 Th 5:21-22 NIV) Test everything. Hold on to the good. {22} Avoid every kind of evil.
Context and background. Verbal prophecy in the first Century setting. No Bibles then. God gave gift of prophecy for those times. How else could people get the word of God, unless you were lucky enough to have an apostle in your church? Occasionally letters would come etc. Prophet would get up and give a message direct from God. How could you trust these guys (or women)?

In the previous verse, Paul says ‘don’t treat prophecy with contempt’. Give it a hearing. Don’t dismiss it out of hand before you’ve had a chance to evaluate it. Then, test everything. Hold onto the good.

Risk we face: Rejecting everything. If you’re hurt, you may well feel this way. “I’m not listening to that stuff any more.” I can’t trust anymore. I understand those feelings and God even more so. But if we reject everything, the risk we face is missing out on the truth and encouragement that only God’s word can bring. Bible is profound on this point. Test everything, everything. Hold on to the good.

2. Tool #2: Handling Anger
How do I deal with the anger I feel?

(Psa 137 NIV) By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept when we remembered Zion. {2} There on the poplars we hung our harps, {3} for there our captors asked us for songs, our tormentors demanded songs of joy; they said, "Sing us one of the songs of Zion!" {4} How can we sing the songs of the LORD while in a foreign land? {5} If I forget you, O Jerusalem, may my right hand forget its skill. {6} May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth if I do not remember you, if I do not consider Jerusalem my highest joy. {7} Remember, O LORD, what the Edomites did on the day Jerusalem fell. "Tear it down," they cried, "tear it down to its foundations!" {8} O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us-- {9} he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.

Situation: massive disillusionment, betrayal. God was with us and now here we are in exile. How could this happen? Our brothers, the Edomites betrayed us too!

Look at v8 and 9. “The way I’m feeling right now is that I wish someone would take the children of our oppressors and dash them to death against the rocks.” Any by the way I’d be really happy if you get yours in payment for what you’ve done to us.

That is very raw, very intense and very ugly. But it’s also in the Bible. What does that show us? God validates that anger as part of the human experience, particularly in times of trauma and severe loss. Yet I believe that God is also showing us how we can deal with these kinds of emotions. This passage is a Psalm. It’s humans talking to God. It’s people expressing their deepest emotions to God. God wants these things to be expressed. Seek God’s face, tell him how you feel. He wants to hear it.

(Eph 4:25-27 NIV) Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body. {26} "In your anger do not sin" : Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, {27} and do not give the devil a foothold.

Context: relationships with each other.
Focus on v26. Bible draws a distinction between anger and sin. Anger is not sin. God gets angry at times. However, when we are angry we have an increased likelihood of sinning. The warning for us here is to not give the devil a foothold.

Do not let the sun go down while you are angry? Reason I mention this is because it is likely some may think that you need to get over it by nightfall. Is that the case? Do you have less time to deal with anger in the winter? Is daylight saving give us extra hours? What about those in arctic regions? You could have months and months before needing to deal with anger! What if you got really angry at 10 seconds before dusk?

The point is: Don’t do nothing about dealing with it. God doesn’t want us to remain that way. If we do not deal with anger it will effect our relationships, and our relationship with God. Do some personal bible study on this topic. Don’t give the devil a foothold.

3. Tool #3: Resensitising to People’s Needs
Read (John 11:30-48 NIV) Lazarus
Amazing passage - insight into the depth of Jesus’ compassion and empathy.

{33} When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled.
Jesus was deeply moved. What by? The weeping of another. He was moved, he was troubled.

Jesus wept at Lazarus’ grave. Ever wonder why he wept when he knew he was going to raise him from the dead a few minutes later? He cared. I believe he was empathising with the grief and loss experienced by Mary. It was a sad situation, Jesus responded appropriately.

Bible says: Rejoice with those who rejoice, mourn with those who mourn. Get on the same emotional level as others. As brothers and sisters, how to respond to someone who is really hurting? - mourn with those who mourn. Grieving process, sense of loss. Takes time. Uncomfortable? Personal illustration: Me slow to mourn when we found we couldn’t have children. I now regret my inability to empathise with Leanne at that time profoundly.

Let’s not be unempathetic or facile. Comments like : “But remember all the good things the church has done too”, “Nothing happened to me”, “let’s move on”. All these sentiments may have some authenticity, but the point is that this is not the right time to articulate them. People are hurting, we need to meet those needs - empathy.

I believe that we really need this tool. We are too quick to spiritualise people’s problems. “Trust God sister! Don’t be so self-centred! Suck it up”. When we look again at the passage, we find some who were not moved by Mary’s situation at all. The Pharisees! Their response? They called a meeting about it because they felt threatened.

We need to be empathetic. We need to support and love those who are hurting.


Tool #4: Hope in God

Read (Psa 25 NIV)
Many great verse to meditate on here.
To you O Lord do I lift up my soul. In you I trust O my God. : We need to turn to God. Lift up our soul to God. Trust our God. We can’t trust in man for the answers.
Show me your ways, O LORD, teach me your paths; {5} guide me in your truth and teach me, for you are God my Savior, and my hope is in you all day long. - We need to be teachable by God, and put our hope in him.

So many words of comfort: The Lord confides in those who fear him. The intimacy with God I know we crave. My eyes are ever on the Lord, for only he will release my feet from the snare.

Be gracious to me, I am afflicted. Free me from my anguish. Guard my life, let me not be put to shame, for I take refuge in you.

We need the tool of hope in God. The most powerful one of all. Only God can show us the path forward. Only God can bring an end to pain and suffering. Only God can truly redeem us.

I submit to you that we need to personally develop where we are under-developed.

We talked about the idea of some tools to build a platform on which we can stand:
Tool #1: Discernment: Distinguish good from evil.
Tool #2: Handling anger. Valid but work it through.
Tool #3: Resensitise to people’s needs. Mourn with those who mourn.
Tool #4: Put our Hope in God.

Let’s take up these tools, bind ourselves to each other, and bind ourselves to God. Amen.

Testimonies
Melissa Jacob and Phil Scott shared their personal experiences of life in the church. Some personal details have been omitted.

MELISSA JACOB

I am sick of hearing superficial testimonies (“I was stinking it out, but now I have baptised 50 people and am going great”!) I want to give a “realimony”. [Story of how she came to faith.]

Initially in the church I was very happy, and felt free to ask questions about anything I did not understand or agree with. But when I was in leadership, I was told I was critical or unsupportive. It was often said we did not believe in works salvation, but I was told (Heb 13:17, Luke 9:23) if I really loved God I would baby-sit or run late night errands.

‘Denying sin’ taught as denying sleep or time.
Compounded by harsh words and discipling. Yelled at, mocked, called names.
Melissa’s dating relationship with her (now husband) used as a tool to divide them. Personal history was used in a humiliating and crushing way.
Sins confessed in confidence were told to groups of people, and pressure was applied to admit to sins not committed.
Overall effect produced numbness, permanent sense of guilt and paranoia, and loss of self-esteem.
Found it hard to come to church because the messages were so challenging that I felt worse after hearing them than before I came.
Discipleship groups talked about what people had or had not done, not about God.
Melissa did love God, but was scared to go to hell, and did not want to leave. This explains why she stayed around the church instead of leaving.
Coerced to lead a flat of people she did not know.
Lied about and slandered. Leaders told she was worldly and critical. No one listened or took her seriously.
Told to break up with boyfriend (now married). No reason given. Told that if it was meant to happen, God would work it out. Felt angry that she allowed this to happen.
Began working at a religious school. Impacted by worship services there. Ps 23 - he restores my soul. Understood that the answer was not a new leader, or waiting for the church to change, but that it was only god who could restore her soul.
Professionally advised that Melissa had been treated abusively.

Became part of the spiritual recovery group within the church, we she was able to examine her hurts in confidentiality as well as negative trigger words. Mt 6:33 was very important-seek his kingdom and his righteousness.

My husband told me the wife of noble character laughs at the days to come, and I should be happy. Came to be able to resist subtle forms of manipulation, altering of schedule and guilt feelings. Released from the pressure of needing to look good, have a perfect house, etc.

My relationship with God cannot be measured by what I do or what I achieve. This journey will be filled with times of weeping and mourning, so that later we can laugh and dance.

PHILIP SCOTT
My journey from the last 9½ years has been difficult from the beginning. Never able to make the personal connection with God. I always thought my motives were wrong. I sensed that I was faking it outwardly, and this went on for about 5 years. About 4 years ago I shut down, hardly read or prayed and stopped sharing my faith because I had none.

I cried at my frustration and lack of understanding from others. At times I hated God for what I was experiencing. I came to believe I could not be a disciple, I would never measure up, yet I could not bring myself to quit. I gave up seeking him (no leader, no discipler-no one I approached could help). I got sick and tired of the same old “There must be sin in your life”-doctrinal trash when we are out of our depth to help. I finally got to the point where I could not sit on the fence-despised God and withdrew.

Felt shattered and worthless and ashamed. I could not escape the fact that God did exist. It was a huge internal battle which affected my wife and daughter as they bore the brunt of my anger. My eyes didn’t see anymore, nor did my ears hear.

Last year at SR I began a journey of self-discovery, not being spoon fed… I saw I was cowardly and would not speak up to those lording it over me. I was consumed with seeking the approval of men. No wonder I felt so empty and angry.

Acceptance by people was more important than acceptance by God. Coming face to face with who I really was, was really hard, but once I was able to pull the plank out of my eye, I came into a period of intense anger. I saw church leaders’ blind allegiance to the system. Felt like anything could push me over the edge, and felt like being physically violent towards others.

This in time led to a passion to change. I made peace with God, and let the Spirit lead me. The system had no room for those who would not walk the company line. It was very graceless.

Overcoming this system is not rebelling against God. I saw from Jesus’ example that there is no sin in rejecting manmade systems. Standing on the outside of the system allowed me to see just how suffocating it is. You realise who your friends are.

I then rejected everything this church taught me. Then I went back to the beginning, seeking to build my convictions from the scriptures. This building is going on now, and will continue till I die. The church only plays a very minor role in my relationship with God. It is certainly not the gateway to my salvation. Praise God I have been set loose from this.

From my perspective, healing comes from looking inward at my weaknesses, and then outwards at the system. Do not rely on the leaders to guide you, to be spoon fed.

MARK JOHNSON
[I have just changed everything I was about to say.] Where you stand depends on where you sit-your stands depend on your experiences in life to that point. Each of us in this room is processing things in different ways-just as we have four gospels, four perspectives.

Standard arguments that I have had with some of the church leaders or staff because I would not bring someone to a meeting to be rebuked for not being evangelistic… Also remember the tears of joy the day we left PNG-and the empathy so many shared in this church when we lost our son. Each of us has his own experience of this church.

My work as management consultant (change management) has me explaining the four stages of transition. Denial (often with anger), Resistance, Exploration, Commitment. I see people in every stage of this transition. I would like to share with you how important it is for us to allow others to have their space, and to be patient with them. We may be in a different stage to where someone else is.

I do believe (my opinion) that the answer is in the Bible and in our relationship with God. I see Martin, Emma… others I have not seen in a long time. I am so happy this church is becoming a safer place. A place where we can share burdens, apologise if we need to, to mend relationships.

I have been waiting for this day for about 8 years; this doesn’t make me any better. I am so proud and so pleased that we are here today and able to talk like this. Someone asked me a couple of weeks ago, ‘I wonder if there is another agenda to this?’ If so, it has gone too far, because we all have a voice now.

The one thing I ask for from each of us as believers is that we seek to forgive, that we seek first his kingdom, and that we take the time to understand people, to care and nurture, and to point people toward God. This is an exciting, painful, sweet, bitter time… Responsibility: I was as much a part of this system which we are denouncing as anyone. Response = response + ability. We have the ability to respond in whatever way we want.

MIKE & BRONWYN HOWELL
We’ve just heard intense stories from Melissa and Patrick, and now I have to talk about the marrieds retreat… (laughter)

Announcement about marrieds’ retreat. Marriages pleasing to God are part of churches that please God. I need direction in my marriage. We need to stand up and talk, and get input.

MARRIEDS’ RETREAT-Saturday 1 Mar ch, 10 am-5 pm, and Sunday 2 March, 11 am-1 pm
Sat morning plans include devo and 7 mini-lessons w/Q&A (Newlyweds: foundations / Parenting principles: 0-5 / When your spouse is not a believer / The single parent: special commitment for a special challenge / Older marrieds / Parenting school-age kids / Parenting teenagers). Saturday afternoon: Open Forum (Titus 2-Did we get it backwards? / Matt 11-Forceful leaders, angry husbands: Leadership culture & its effect on family / Gal 6-Preferential treatment, family, and the church family / 1 Pet 3-Rivals or partners? / 1 Tim 3-Family men: God’s leaders for his churches) followed by a time of prayer. (The evening is open.) Sun worship at Blaxland Civic Centre.

Doug Jacoby - ‘Whats’ going on?’

Doug was asked to speak on the topic of What’s going on around the world? And Are we alone in all of this? With his relationships worldwide he was the ideal person to handle these questions.

Places where change has been in the air for several years:
Boston leadership under elders for a couple of years. Have released staff who they thought were too controlling. Golden Rule Leadership will help you to understand the processes at work. One Boston satellite:
Berlin-staff member attended Tuesday staff meeting in Sydney, helpful perspective.
Miami, Orlando… last few years dismantling.
L.A.-letter of apology (phone call yesterday). Big head start with resignation of church leader.

In some places, discussions are underway:
Seoul and Tokyo
Vancouver-discussions (email this morning)
DC-Staff discussions.

In some places, people are corked up and it’s all come out suddenly:
UK-90 staff now down to 50, loss of civility: Leadership way out of touch with how people were really feeling.
London in a unique place-nowhere else in the world is even close to the British Isles in terms of the breakdown of trust and Christian charity.
So far the UK appears to be the only place like this.

In most churches, the talks and changes are being initiated by staff members and older members, as these tend to be the people who have experienced the greatest hurt from the system.

Atlanta-a couple of congregational meetings. Steve Sapp along with Steve Johnson have championed the cause of congregational freedom. Not that we would not be part of the ICOC worldwide, but that our relationship to it would not be one of submission but one of mutual mission.

Indianapolis-consensus group for two years now (staff/non-staff). In touch with both sides of church in this city. We are also beginning to be in touch with COC ministers around Australia. So far we have met a demeanour of good will.


Papers are being written-some of which contribute new thoughts to the ongoing worldwide discussion.
I have read and written many…
Gordon Ferguson’s consensus leadership paper
Mike Cameron’s paper on discipling and congregational structure
Tom Jones’ paper

(1) DON’T PROJECT!
Doug warned against assuming that the same thing is happening everywhere in the world. To do so would be like assuming that the whole world is in Sydney’s time zone or having the same weather.
Uniformity is an illusion. The wave of reform is not equally strong, nor equally required, in all places. Those who claim the entire ICOC is uniformly the same simply do not know what they are talking about.

(2) BE ENCOURAGED
Change is coming everywhere, for the most part in an orderly way.

Changes in who leads, how they lead, how church is led, how it is fed, and how people feel.

(3) PRAY FOR CHURCHES WORLDWIDE
1 Peter 5:9

To answer the questions, What’s going on around the world? and Are we alone in all of this?:
the wave of reform has been growing for several years; some churches are ahead of us here in Sydney, others (probably) most are trailing behind
Yet we are most definitely not alone. Brothers and sisters around the world.

Geordie Barham - How did we get here?
Who is leading the Sydney church?
Hurts people have felt have led to this process. Mid-2002 deacon group re-examined entire leadership structure. It was a sore time, facing how we had set things up. The SRG openly challenged the system-that was painful, but needed. Others ask, what is the fuss? We are dismantling the system of manmade control. The staff are not standing in the way; they want to embrace the change. Biblical principles are replacing manmade rules.

Who is leading the church? Not Geordie Barham, not Mike Fontenot. We are an autonomous church, with the resources we need among us. The leadership structure is being formed and will hopefully be formed in the next few weeks. The old is being replaced by the new. Some want the answer now, but we need time and room for collaborative discussion as a church, to look in depth at what the scriptures teach. We are moving towards a team.

Right now is a time to embrace pain; otherwise we cannot move forward. This week Paula and I had the chance to embrace the hurts of dear friends, Dean and Nikki Haustead. We had not followed the Golden Rule. We failed to feel their pain and what they felt. We put them through some 15 different d-groups to expose and stamp out sin in their lives. This created suspicion among people they led. We created an atmosphere of distrust.

Where are we going from here? Carry each other’s burdens-in the process of time there will be healing.

Richard Parrott -Labelling & divisiveness
Anything I can have to say pales to insignificance compared with what our special speakers said. Sometimes we have been lied about and untruths have been told to make a point. Saying bad things about people is slander. The door is open; walk through it. Go through the door.

Mainline churches

Long and tumultuous relationship… “disunity meeting.” Because of how we treated these people, change is needed. The One True Church doctrine is exposed as a lie-otherwise Mike Fontenot and Doug Jacoby would not be disciples.

16 March service
What’s going to happen? It’s up to you-input has been received. Church finances will be covered if they have not already been covered…. Send emails to Geoff Hansen or Doug Jacoby or whoever if you have things you want to be discussed.

GEOFF HANSEN-Close-out
I have shed many tears as a member of this church. Everybody has bad stories… follow AK’s advice… that is where you will ultimately find peace. Forgiveness benefits us, not the person we forgive. What we need to do is to change ourselves.

Things aren’t happening fast enough? It took us 15 years to build a failure; it will take time to build a success. Don’t replace one authoritarian leadership with another."

_________________
Юрий Тимчук
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Сообщение Добавлено: Ср Мар 12, 2003 7:41 am Ответить с цитатойВернуться к началу

А вот еще бы хороший перевод icon_biggrin.gif
А то промты слегка поднадоели, извините.
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Сообщение Добавлено: Ср Мар 12, 2003 7:06 pm Ответить с цитатойВернуться к началу

Дорогая, Наташа!

Литературный перевод текста подобного объема требует намалого времени. Мне, например, понадобится не менее 3-4 часов. Кто ж может позволить себе такое? - Угробить 4 часа рабочего или личного времени на облитературивание перевода английского текста, который уже и так прочитан и понят.
Так что придется тебе ПРОМТом довольствоваться или же самой учить английский. Это кстати хорошая идея - выучить язык, на котором говорит пол мира.

С уважением, Павел.
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Сообщение Добавлено: Ср Мар 12, 2003 7:18 pm Ответить с цитатойВернуться к началу

Натали писал(а):
А вот еще бы хороший перевод icon_biggrin.gif
А то промты слегка поднадоели, извините.

когда долго читаешь ПРОМТ перестаешь замечать бредовость некоторых фраз icon_biggrin.gif ... Кто-то видит зелененькие цифорки, кто-то блондинку в красном. Хуже всего правда если начинаешь думать с ПРОМТовским акцентом. icon_lol.gif
А если словарь ручками настроить, так он вообще - душка, этот Промт.
Огромный прогресс вообще-то в машинном переводе.

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Юрий Тимчук
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Сообщение Добавлено: Чт Мар 13, 2003 11:57 am Ответить с цитатойВернуться к началу

Спасибо за добрые советы. Постараюсь воспользоваться и твоим, Юра (программист я или нет?), и твоим, Павел (тем более, что через два месяца экзамен по кандидатскому минимуму).175.gif

И все-таки так хочется видеть готовый литературный (или хотя бы слегка адаптированный) перевод ну хотя бы самых важных (на ваш взгляд) текстов!! pain03.gif
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Сообщение Добавлено: Чт Мар 20, 2003 9:14 am Ответить с цитатойВернуться к началу

Vanya писал(а):

- Евангелизм - в учении МЦХ, является небиблейским.

Интересно что имеется ввиду под этим словом?

Vanya писал(а):
- Наставление "один на один" является небиблейским.

Вот это глупо, не согласен. Небиблейским я так понимаю, против Библии? Тогда сто пудов не согласен. Я много понял именно через разговоры один на один, по душам. Я горжусь теми временами, которые провел со своим учеником, Бог показал, что это эффективно для молодых учеников и отказаться от этого-показать свою глупость и получить мнимую свободу каяться перед группой, а не перед каким-то человеком лично. Человек должен учиться послушанию, иначе загнется в мире, не сможет противостоять влиянию сатаны. Все злоупотребления,которые я видел из-за того, что молодые ученики, сопляки грубо говоря, учили тому, чего на практике и не видели, поэтому более зрелые несоглашаясь справедливо подставляли себя под уход. Я всегда был против такого расклада и боролся не против наставничества, против "незрелого" наставничества.

Vanya писал(а):
- Тихие Времена - понимание МЦХ ошибочно, Вы не должны читать Библию каждый день. Священные писания просто призывают нас размышлять над Словом каждый день.

А кто говорит, что ДОЛЖНЫ? Мы ДОЛЖНЫ не обижать, мы ДОЛЖНЫ любить людей, мы ДОЛЖНЫ оказывать поддержку друг другу? Если я не провел ТВ, то мне же хуже: я потерял возможность назидания от Господа. Надо сказать Иисус молился часто рано утром даже, у Него стиль был молитвенный и вначале служения Он не шатался с друзьями по пивным, а молился.
11 Здешние были благомысленнее Фессалоникских: они приняли слово со всем усердием, ежедневно разбирая Писания, точно ли это так.
(Деян.17:11)
Хотите, чтобы вас называли слепо верующими, пожалуйста, только поставите благомысленным людям преграду ко Христу. Вряд ли человек, не читающий Библию сможет что-то объяснить о Боге неверующему, стыд на его голову придет, если не ответит на простые вопросы.
4 А все, что писано было прежде, написано нам в наставление, чтобы мы терпением и утешением из Писаний сохраняли надежду.
(Рим.15:4)
Как ее сохранить, эту надежду, если Писаний не знаешь?
16 Все Писание богодухновенно и полезно для научения, для обличения, для исправления, для наставления в праведности,
(2Тим.3:16)
Как ты сможешь спасти брата своего и себя в том числе, если не сумеешь показать этот грех на основании прочитанного в Библии. И погибнешь и сам и брат твой.
2 Хотя и говорят они: "жив Господь!", но клянутся ложно.
3 О, Господи! очи Твои не к истине ли [обращены]? Ты поражаешь их, а они не чувствуют боли; Ты истребляешь их, а они не хотят принять вразумления; лица свои сделали они крепче камня, не хотят обратиться.
4 И сказал я [сам в себе]: это, может быть, бедняки; они глупы, потому что не знают пути Господня, закона Бога своего;
(Иер.5:2-4)
Безграмотность в вопросах веры никогда не шла на пользу, игнорировать ошибки, свидетельствованные в Библии крайне неразумно.
Любой настоящий христианин не поленится уделить Богу время для молитвы и чтения Библии.

Vanya писал(а):

- Управление/злоупотребление свиданиями.

Злоупотребление свиданиями-это как? Если это следование тем советам, которые есть, то предположу, что Австралия по глупости своей столкнется с проблемой блуда в Церкви.

Vanya писал(а):
- Стиль сбора десятины в МЦХ - основанный на неопределенном знании учения Ветхого Завета. Он спросил в шутку, сколько из нас отдало 10 % любых овощей/трав, которые мы вырастили в наших собственных садах.

Ну хотите лишиться тех благословений обещанных Богом-дерзайте!
10 Принесите все десятины в дом хранилища, чтобы в доме Моем была пища, и хотя в этом испытайте Меня, говорит Господь Саваоф: не открою ли Я для вас отверстий небесных и не изолью ли на вас благословения до избытка?
(Мал.3:10)
Иудеев вы не спасете точно, если ревнителям закона покажите какие вы жлобствующие христиане, которые даже десять процентов жмутся отдать, прикрываясь тем, что якобы это ВЗ. Но в Библии сказано:
16 Все Писание богодухновенно и полезно для научения, для обличения, для исправления, для наставления в праведности,
(2Тим.3:16)
а значит игнорируя это наставление, не стоит надеятся на то, что кто-то из евреев обратится, а значит Христа ждать ой как долго.

_________________
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